tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post939518534151117713..comments2024-03-25T09:01:20.997-07:00Comments on Diary of an Autodidact: Modesty Culture Part 11: "Others may, we cannot" is a LieDiary of an Autodidacthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-87669187476010647782015-08-08T12:44:59.001-07:002015-08-08T12:44:59.001-07:00My husband and I don't have children, so I gue...My husband and I don't have children, so I guess that's why we didn't see it. Neither of our families were into the Patriarchy Movement as deeply as you and your wife experienced it. My family was more affected than his was, but my parents never followed any specific leader and ignored many aspects of it (they were/are vigorously anti-Reconstructionist). Many of the ideologies that we did pick up were either made on the individual basis (my dad never had a problem with pants on women and allowed us to make our own choices) or were agreed upon as a family without coercion. In fact, my dad taught his kids that he wanted us to think for ourselves and make our own choices, and he allowed us to interact with all kinds of people who were "on different wavelengths" from our family. He had trouble dealing with it later when we took him at his word and made our own choices, but he got over it. :-)<br /><br />Biblical Patriarchy is a big deal in Texas and we've run across a lot of it, which has caused me to do quite a bit of research on it. One sister-in-law came out of an iron-fisted Independent Fundamental Baptist environment. She was heavily influenced by what I call "the purity cult", so she has given me a lot to consider and think about in her observations and her battle to free her mind from that control. She has likewise been startled that my convictions are really my own and not someone's demand of what I "needed" to do. So, it's been interesting interacting. We've had a lot of misunderstandings, but we've also become close friends despite our differences in some areas. <br /><br />I will say that I've come to the conclusion that we Christians probably should spend our whole lives revisiting what we believe from time to time and making corrections as needed. I've read that John Wesley burned all his sermons every 7 years because he felt he should have more understanding after that length of time. That is very thought-provoking. Only imagine if Gothard, Pearl and Phillips had done that.Mary E. Stephenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09206071568335923658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-227270798441429372015-08-08T12:09:19.966-07:002015-08-08T12:09:19.966-07:00It took me a while to figure this out, because I c...It took me a while to figure this out, because I couldn't understand why people would take their children out in public, yet would be so paranoid about being around fellow Christians who weren't "likeminded" enough. I finally understood the dynamic when I had my own kids, and began to have issues with extended family in this exact way. There was this need to control what we did, and I couldn't escape the conclusion that I came to. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-8344590168672587812015-08-07T20:01:29.018-07:002015-08-07T20:01:29.018-07:00DOAA, thanks for writing this. Although my perspe...DOAA, thanks for writing this. Although my perspective is quite different than yours in some ways, I appreciated reading your views, especially since you and your wife experienced Patriarchy to a degree that I never did. Also, I appreciate that you try to be even-handed in your writing (as far as I've read so far). My husband and I have observed that many people in leaving the extreme positions of "Biblical Patriarchy" and legalism tend to run to opposite extremes, which is often unhelpful.<br /><br />One thing you wrote was very clarifying for me.<br /><br />"What if the kid (being intelligent and all) sees someone they love - who may very well be a Christian too - breaking mommy and daddy’s rules?<br /><br />"The child might decide that following that legalistic rule is NOT necessary to be a good person or even a good Christian.<br /><br />"And that - make no mistake - would be unthinkable."<br /><br />This really explained some strange behavior my husband and I have been witnessing in some people we know. I even passed the concept on to my brother and his wife and they both could see how well it explains what we've all been dealing with and experiencing. In short, we are the "dangerous ones" because we do, allow, wear, accept things in ourselves or others that this particular couple want their children to see as strictly "ungodly". However, it is fine to take them to the park to play where others would be doing some of these "bad things". <br /><br />Since we all love the Lord and strive to walk in His ways, it would be unthinkable for their kids to figure out that we are "good Christians" when we do "bad things". Thank you for that clarifying thought. We now have another piece of this mysterious puzzle.<br />Mary E. Stephenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09206071568335923658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-12727675872146530342015-06-02T12:00:15.164-07:002015-06-02T12:00:15.164-07:00Wow. That's quite a story.
I often wonder if...Wow. That's quite a story. <br /><br />I often wonder if I would have left the faith entirely had Gothardism been my only experience of it. I believe it was the positive experiences I had up through the middle of high school that kept me believing that maybe Gothardism was a cult, and that there was more to Christianity than that. <br /><br />And, there was still C. S. Lewis...<br /><br />Blessings on your journey!Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-21224338783040369692015-06-01T18:54:52.704-07:002015-06-01T18:54:52.704-07:00I am so amazed to find this series. Due to the rec...I am so amazed to find this series. Due to the recent events of the Duggar family and the media attention, this blog was suggested on my Facebook feed. I hope you won't mind me sharing my personal experience within the fundamental church and specifically with the Duggar family, as your series has been incredibly helpful in easing my mind about my childhood with them. <br /><br />My mother had me when she was 16, out of wedlock, and met my stepfather when I was 4. She married him and had 2 boys within 18 months of each other, then they got a vasectomy seeing as we could not afford any more, nor did they want any. Around this time my mom took on a fascination with the church around the corner, which was Southern Baptist (mostly because they knocked on our door every Sunday to take me to Sunday school) and joined. <br /><br />A few weeks later the Duggar family came to services. I believe they had 9 children at the time. My mom was immediately drawn to them as they kept their children with them in the service instead of sending them to children's church, and they were all quiet and behaved. Soon after, they decided to leave and create their own home church. My family went with them. <br /><br />After that my entire life changed. I had already been homeschooled but we started attending Gothard seminars, studying wisdom booklets, and "purged" our home of the secular evils. My entire bedroom was stuffed into a can and burned, my entire closet was as well. I could not understand at 7,8 years old why suddenly wearing shorts was an evil abomination and my neighbor friend wasn't allowed to come over. This continued for a few years to greater and lesser degrees as my mom struggled with their decision to have a vasectomy, she was constantly (though passively) put down for having me out of wedlock and at such a scandalous young age, for not wanting more children (who in their right, godly mind??) and other things such as coming to church with skirts a little too short or flashy, etc. <br /><br />Of course there were many other things that happened in my pre teen years, but what stands out is my moms constant battering about boyfriends, keeping me far away from boys and being sure I acted appropriately when in their company. I wasn't exactly a flirt, but I did go through puberty early and my new shape was somehow seen as obscene and needed covering. I spent most of my awkward early teen years in oversized skirts and large, shapeless denim shirts. My chest was a constant source of scrutiny and anything normal sized was considered too tight or too low. Eventually I was sent to public school for a number of reasons, and I found the culture shock to be a little too much. At first I tried to preach the message but found I was laughed at and debated with my people much smarter and better read than I was. I eventually looked into a few of my ingrained beliefs and realized how silly and backwards it was. I had never thought I'd need to go to college but here I was taking AP college prep classes and my teachers were laughing at me for not taking my skills to the next level. <br /><br />Eventually when I turned 18 I rebelled and moved out, renounced anything to do with the church or God in general and lived in anger and resentment. Lately as I've gotten older I've begun searching out historical and contextual writings about the bible so I can see what it really means without all the ridiculous interpretation. I still don't believe we need God to be good people and that most people use religion as a crutch but I do believe the bible has many good things to hear if I can find a way to listen. Thank you for helping me in that journey. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16763810792619461259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-13498582804584499512014-08-29T11:05:01.230-07:002014-08-29T11:05:01.230-07:00I've considered it. My pastor completely re-ar...I've considered it. My pastor completely re-arranged my thinking on this point (in a good way) by showing the difference between a weak conscience, as Saint Paul puts it, and a legalist. I should put this issue on the list of stuff to blog about when I get time. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-87561320672381221432014-08-29T09:37:38.314-07:002014-08-29T09:37:38.314-07:00Oh, Romans 14, and also I Corinthians 8 and 10, ha...Oh, Romans 14, and also I Corinthians 8 and 10, have been so twisted over the years as to justify many kinds of authoritarian pronouncements, when really they are all about freedom! I'd love to read your thoughts on those passages.jochanaanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14143066702059757955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-58522589956910766292014-08-19T10:22:52.378-07:002014-08-19T10:22:52.378-07:00This is a problem throughout Evangelicalism in par...This is a problem throughout Evangelicalism in particular, across denominational lines. <br /><br />I mentioned alcohol intentionally, because it too tends to be one area in which "others may" turns out to be untrue. A friend of mine had to give up alcohol for a year to be able to teach a class in the Baptist church he was attending, because it was considered a non-negotiable issue there. <br /><br />I didn't get into it in this post, but I might have to do one on the misuse of Romans 14 to impose legalistic rules. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-15116035215914907382014-08-19T09:17:53.208-07:002014-08-19T09:17:53.208-07:00I can verify from my time in the Church of the Naz...I can verify from my time in the Church of the Nazarene that the actions of their leaders do not reflect the "others may" part of that statement. They do tend to believe that their way is the only good way. Sad, because otherwise they're good people who understand God's grace, at least regarding salvation.jochanaanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14143066702059757955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-71108697339115334212014-08-18T08:17:41.688-07:002014-08-18T08:17:41.688-07:00Thanks for this excellent article. I can identify....Thanks for this excellent article. I can identify. I do believe that modesty culture boomerangs by causing people, especially boys and men, to be MORE obsessed with sexual thoughts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com