tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post9086406093836717819..comments2024-03-25T09:01:20.997-07:00Comments on Diary of an Autodidact: Josh Duggar, Ashley Madison, and Covenant MarriageDiary of an Autodidacthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-585807992283477642016-01-12T13:31:53.490-08:002016-01-12T13:31:53.490-08:00Have you found any information that actually confi...Have you found any information that actually confirms that Josh Duggar really is in rehab? I'm just curious as everything that I've found looked more like hearsay than anything factual. My sister-in-law keeps wondering if he actually skipped the country and/or that the family sent him packing to get him out of their hair. :-) She grew up in the cultic Independent Baptist world and to say she's suspicious of their antics would be an understatement.Mary E. Stephenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09206071568335923658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-57116134738645576262015-09-18T20:21:42.911-07:002015-09-18T20:21:42.911-07:00P.S. I ought to say that we can learn from discus...P.S. I ought to say that we can learn from discussing things respectfully with people we don't agree with in general (not meaning you and Amanda), but I appreciate that you exercise critical thinking and that you try to be even handed in dealing with various aspects of the subjects I've read on so far. Mary E. Stephenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09206071568335923658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-66266308598347533342015-09-18T19:51:55.257-07:002015-09-18T19:51:55.257-07:00Well, I'm glad to have made a positive contrib...Well, I'm glad to have made a positive contribution to the discussion. I've found we can learn a lot more from respectful discussion with people who are headed in a similar direction but aren't on the same exact page as we are than we do if we only talk to people who agree with us entirely (which isn't possible anyway).<br /><br />You are right that Josh and Anna were on schedule, now that you mention it. I guess I was comparing them with Quiverfull people who are more prolific, such as JimBob and Michelle and others.<br /><br />I don't know if I mentioned it here before or not, but I've wondered if there is some connection/similarity between the ancient cults surrounding sacred virgins and sex, and the modern idolization of the young female virgins and sex in Purity Culture.<br /><br />In your last paragraph I can see the point you're making, but I don't entirely agree. In Mark 10:2-12 it seems very clear to me that God never intended marriages to be taken apart. The exceptions are made in other passages (Matt. 5 and 19, etc.), but in this passage it's categorically condemned. Furthermore Jesus Christ indicates in Mark 10 that a woman could put her husband away; or perhaps to be quite particular - "shall" - which is future to some degree and brings up the curious question as to whether this had a prophetic flavor rather than applying strictly to that time. Having said that, though, I also don't believe that God intended these passages to be used to bludgeon women into staying and suffering actually abusive marriages, or to allow their children to be abused. I will give it further thought as well. <br /><br />In reading your comment I also couldn't help but think of the woman at the well in John 4. It's obvious that Jesus planned His arrival there especially to meet her as she came at an odd hour to draw water (presumably to avoid meeting other women who would despise her). There He told two of the most amazing truths about the new way He was establishing to a woman divorced five times who was "shacking up"; then He let her go into the town and be His evangelist to bring the men out! And, of course, included it in His revelation. That just makes me smile. There's something very satisfying about it and it makes me appreciate God's sense of humor.<br /><br />Finally, I'd just say that I think a lot of misguided things have been believed and taught under the guise of "taking the Bible literally." It's interesting to see how many things are not just what man claims them to be when we stop and look at what God actually said.Mary E. Stephenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09206071568335923658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-26316378231630471822015-09-14T14:49:07.505-07:002015-09-14T14:49:07.505-07:00If I haven't already done so, let me say thank...If I haven't already done so, let me say thanks for the thoughtful contributions to the discussions on my blog. Welcome aboard!<br /><br />I'll correct the years bit. According to my research, the first child was born in 2009, and the last (for now) in 2015, which makes it 4 in 6 years. <br /><br />As far as being "behind" or not in Quiverfull terms, it does appear the the first child was within a year of marriage, and then they are spaced *roughly* two years apart thereafter. This would be a reasonable rate of reproduction assuming no birth control, but with breastfeeding for a little more than a year. (It also assumes that breastfeeding delays ovulation in their case. If nature had been left completely alone, all of my kids would have been spaced 15 months apart. But even *I* am not that crazy...) <br /><br />I too have noticed that for all the supposed "purity" of the past, there sure were a LOT of prostitutes. In 18th Century Paris (which was fairly representative of cities at the time), fully one in ten women were sex workers. That is why I am becoming more and more convinced that what has changed in our modern world isn't *male* sexual behavior, but *female* sexual behavior. Before, men could sleep around with impunity. There were no legal consequences in most cases, and, morally, promiscuity and adultery would be winked at. Boys will be boys, and everyone sows his wild oats... But also, back then, there was a clear line between "good" girls, and "bad" girls. This persists in the constant reminder in "Purity Culture" that there are women you sleep with and women you marry, and those aren't the same. <br /><br />Just as one more bit, although I probably should make a complete post of it some time, is the fact that we often read Christ's teaching on divorce out of context. <br /><br />In the New Testament world - to say nothing of the Old Testament world - women could not initiate a divorce. Only men could do that. And when a man divorced a woman, he was essentially abandoning her. She would either have to live off the charity of her relatives (if they would take a tainted woman back), starve, or prostitute herself. Thus, there was a huge argument between two rabbis of the time: when *was* it okay for a man to throw a woman to the wolves, as it were. Christ came down on the side of reserving such a terrible act to cases where the woman chose to sexually unite herself with another man. To take this teaching and use it to insist that women stay and suffer abuse (hello, John Piper) or worse, to allow children to be abused, is a gross abuse of the meaning of the passage, in my opinion. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-16945396229482144252015-09-14T14:29:11.192-07:002015-09-14T14:29:11.192-07:00Thanks for the corrections. I have located and upd...Thanks for the corrections. I have located and updated the post. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-16829343105946858812015-09-13T11:28:15.028-07:002015-09-13T11:28:15.028-07:00This article, while not being as useful as your pr...This article, while not being as useful as your previous one on the Josh Duggar situation (in my view), still has some items that interested me. I disagree with your views on some aspects of sexuality quite strongly, but I did find your comments regarding the romances of Chivalry in Medieval times to be thought provoking, and I intend to do further research on that. I've thought it was rather curious that men like Doug Phillips have exalted eras such as the Victorian Era (when there were said to be 25 men per 1 prostitute in London), the Titanic (during the Edwardian Era, named after the profligate Edward VII), and Chivalry (which now appears a dubious source of "morals"). I have stopped thinking it is a coincidence.<br /><br />You made a mistake on the 4 kids in 5 years bit. What I found was that Josh and Anna were married in Sept. 2008 and their fourth baby was born July 2015, just under 7 years later. In Quiverfull terms, they're running a little behind. However, having seen a lot of the shows myself, I would tell you that Anna has said things more than once that gave me the impression that having babies is her identity and main purpose in life. I find that very sad, and also detrimental to a healthy marriage. As a woman who married for the first time at 38 and has no children, I find the whole business of marriage and babies being a woman's only "biblical" identity quite offensive and hurtful.<br /><br />Anna's impossible situation is ever worse than you think. According to some sources, Josh and Anna also owe the state of Arkansas around $14,000 in back taxes (several year's worth). With Josh out of work and now hidden away in some rehab program (apparently), the burden of that may well fall on Anna. Since the cancellation of the Duggar reality show, it's unclear what the Duggar cash flow might be at this time and whether they would be able to help Anna out. (Btw, having watched a lot of the old episodes of the reality show, I've seen Anna go from being a naive, bashful mouse to a fairly confident, much more informed woman. Despite the issues of the reality show, I think the travel and contact with people outside her patriarchal box has educated her in ways most women in her world don't experience.)<br /><br />Thank you for explaining Covenant marriage. I don't have any use for the whole covenant culture, but I had no idea the extant of the marriage covenant from a legal standpoint. No wonder Patriarchy is so set on it. I take the teaching of Jesus Christ to be anti-divorce, myself, but I've read and heard of situations where I couldn't encourage the wife to stay, especially when the kids are being abused. Whether actual divorce is inevitable is not for me to say. Since Jesus made it clear that it's better to die a miserable death than offend a child (Luke 17:1-2), I think it's safe to assume that He holds abuse of children as worse than divorce, of which He didn't say such rough things.Mary E. Stephenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09206071568335923658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-36394233426399205152015-09-13T08:30:10.570-07:002015-09-13T08:30:10.570-07:00Since you want to know: I found two typos...
Wha...Since you want to know: I found two typos...<br /><br />What strikes me about the whole description of the girl he wants is how ordinary and mundane it all __us__, unless you have been indoctrinated into Gothardism and Christian Patriarchy.<br /><br />At the very end - Still, as the Patriarchy movement continues __is__ very public meltdown,Mary E. Stephenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09206071568335923658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-26403311667618900992015-09-07T14:17:20.615-07:002015-09-07T14:17:20.615-07:00I find it interesting how many people are quick to...I find it interesting how many people are quick to assume that there is a "biblical" ground for divorce. No doubt, his actions *should* be grounds for divorce - and most Christians would agree.<br /><br />However, what Josh did wouldn't have been considered adultery during most of recorded history. (Adultery was sex with a married woman, and there is no indication that the woman was married.) Likewise, until very recently in history, only men could initiate a divorce. And even when women could, they couldn't unless he failed to support her. So while I (and most others) would give her grounds to divorce, it is only the triumph of feminism that gives her even a legal grounds to divorce at this time. Just something to consider. <br /><br />I am encouraged to see that some are supporting her, even in her family. Still, I can be pretty certain that leaving will not be as easy as it would be for someone outside the Christian Patriarchy culture. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-27164885165978135602015-09-07T13:39:39.938-07:002015-09-07T13:39:39.938-07:00Anna is in an extremely difficult situation right ...Anna is in an extremely difficult situation right now, but it sounds like at least some relatives would back her up if she got divorced, and most of the internet definitely would. IT's also interesting how much of the fundamentalist community is now disguisted with Josh -- even Kevin Swanson is calling Josh a hypocrite. This tells me that if Anna does want to divorce Josh, that she will have the Biblical grounds to divorce and at least have some back up, much more so than if she had wanted to divorce him for what he did when he was a teenager. It's hard to say what anna will do; she has a lot to think over, and I wish the media would quite making assumptions. It's just a juicy story for them. They have no idea. Travis https://www.blogger.com/profile/15544719218180062798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-80752505428917385192015-08-31T15:10:38.594-07:002015-08-31T15:10:38.594-07:00I've seen that as well, and I think it is cred...I've seen that as well, and I think it is credible. I am thrilled to see at least one child made it out of the cult (just like some left the Westboro Baptist Church). Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-76407809429207674752015-08-31T15:08:11.103-07:002015-08-31T15:08:11.103-07:00I understand that Evangelicals are not a monolithi...I understand that Evangelicals are not a monolithic group, and that some have stood up to Christian Patriarchy. However, I stand by my statement that the influence of Patriarchy (and Gothard in particular) run very deep. Evangelicalism is far more "Culturally" Fundamentalist than when I was a child. (See my blog post on that subject.) <br /><br />I will also note that Evangelical churches have supported guys like Gothard for 4 decades. Very few voices called him out as a false prophet. So Evangelicalism's hands are not clean. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-58038142052618186942015-08-31T15:05:59.160-07:002015-08-31T15:05:59.160-07:00As I pointed out above, the issue is which state i...As I pointed out above, the issue is which state issued the license, not the state where the ceremony took place. I obtained my license from California (where I reside), but I could have married out of the state - or even out of the country. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-69435748192723506402015-08-31T15:04:14.649-07:002015-08-31T15:04:14.649-07:00My experience as a divorce attorney also led me to...My experience as a divorce attorney also led me to the conclusion that sexual experience before marriage doesn't correlate particularly strongly with bad marriages. Or vice versa. Although, like Wayne, I have noticed that the shotgun marriages in my extended family (which go back as far as our family history) have tended to be the happiest for some reason. <br /><br />What I would go so far as to say is that American Evangelicals give FAR too much weight to sexual "purity" and far too little to helping people form strong and healthy relationships. And I would consider "equal" to be a key part of that. Perhaps one could say the Golden Rule at work... Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-51413384965012782342015-08-31T15:00:30.584-07:002015-08-31T15:00:30.584-07:00Thanks, Darcy! Your blog has been a great help to ...Thanks, Darcy! Your blog has been a great help to me in sorting through these issues. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-69205140098657400362015-08-31T14:59:45.736-07:002015-08-31T14:59:45.736-07:00Definitely crazy :) We always wanted a large(ish) ...Definitely crazy :) We always wanted a large(ish) family, but never for Quiverful reasons. I have no regrets on that score, but am not sure I could do those early years over again. <br /><br />I'm totally with you on the positive effect of normalcy. I was homeschooled, but played with neighbor kids all the time, and wasn't raised in a bubble by any stretch, and I am thankful for that. <br />Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-38263804051782670222015-08-31T14:57:04.810-07:002015-08-31T14:57:04.810-07:00I can't speak to Maryland, but at least as far...I can't speak to Maryland, but at least as far as child custody, (under the Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction and Enforcement Act (UCCJEA), she would have to show residency in Maryland prior to filing. My understanding is they moved back after the molestation facts came out. So she is probably residing in Arkansas for legal purposes. If she was married using a Florida license (license and place of wedding are not the same), then she would have a non-covenant marriage. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-47284942093714017952015-08-31T14:53:48.792-07:002015-08-31T14:53:48.792-07:00I haven't been able to confirm what Anna does ...I haven't been able to confirm what Anna does or does not have, but I would *strongly* suspect that No Name is right, that it did not involve any education away from home or out of the Fundie bubble. And she certainly was not prepared to have an actual career outside of childbirth and home. If No Name is right, she might have only one career option: a Christian preschool. And that is about it. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-54784561707375684872015-08-31T14:51:56.260-07:002015-08-31T14:51:56.260-07:00Indeed, Dirk. Indeed, Dirk. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-14162093145036246112015-08-27T10:23:57.277-07:002015-08-27T10:23:57.277-07:00I read, somewhere (Jezebel maybe), that her brothe...I read, somewhere (Jezebel maybe), that her brother has publicly posted against Josh and offered to pay to help get her and the kids out of the house, but that his parents won't support her getting a divorce. It was posted on a few different (varying in credibility) websites yesterday.Bree at Clarity Definedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08096737995080439327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-46841537970701808012015-08-26T21:07:18.877-07:002015-08-26T21:07:18.877-07:00Okay, I admit it: "I hate to advocate sexual ...Okay, I admit it: "I hate to advocate sexual immorality" was a joke. Like most of Modern America, I don't consider sex immoral so long as all involved are informed, consenting, and not breaking commitments to others.Dana Carpenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14755223481359798197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-48759912877670377232015-08-25T22:26:03.110-07:002015-08-25T22:26:03.110-07:00I really feel sorry for Anna. She's in a nasty...I really feel sorry for Anna. She's in a nasty situation, without the knowledge that most women her age have as to possible options.<br /><br />It is possible that Anna and Josh can make their marriage work. Possible. But Anna is in a position where she has very little power, partially because of her upbringing, and partially because of her situation (four small children require a lot of work). When you have a power imbalance that big, with Josh having 99% of it, poor Anna is most likely to try and stick it out.<br /><br />Josh needs help. Professional help. The sort of help his background tells him is bad, so he is unlikely to get it. Without that help, I personally think there's no way to salvage the marriage. The only question is how long it will take before things get totally unliveable.<br /><br />Josh has already played his 'Get out of Hell Free' card, which is a really bad sign.<br /><br />I wonder if Anna has any relatives who aren't involved in the movement? If she does, that might provide her with the resources she needs. Of course Josh, his parents, and her parents are likely to try and deny her access to that sort of resources.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18354974465136846413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-25776860227293856712015-08-25T22:10:51.183-07:002015-08-25T22:10:51.183-07:00Why not advocate sexual immorality? The people I k...Why not advocate sexual immorality? The people I know who were sexually immoral are the ones who have strong, long term marriages. The people I know who were sexually moral are the ones who ended up divorced.<br /><br />I'd have to sit down and play with the numbers to get something accurate, but I think about 80% of the immoral marriages lasted, and about 50% of the moral marriages lasted among people I grew up with.<br /><br />Of course this was in Canada, and our culture is different.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18354974465136846413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-65065114745308933702015-08-24T10:18:26.147-07:002015-08-24T10:18:26.147-07:00I would assume the chivalry they think of isn'...I would assume the chivalry they think of isn't medieval European at all.<br /><br />As was stared, the Duggars belong to the reconstuctionist movement, which longs for the Antebellum South (the 'last christian society'), among other distasteful leanings. My guess is they think of General Lee and not King Arthur, and of the Order of American Chivalry and the Southern Gentleman, where behavior is concerned. It's Victorian morals, not the (significantly looser) medieval Europe they're looking to, and it's White Surpremacy they long for, not the Kingdom of God.<br /><br />After all, they <i>really like</i> the Antebellum South. Dirk Löchelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06999370240773896742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-74731051978422209672015-08-23T16:51:25.755-07:002015-08-23T16:51:25.755-07:00Josh and Anna Duggar were married in Florida, not ...Josh and Anna Duggar were married in Florida, not Arkansas, so there is no question of their having a covenant marriage. Jenny in Jerseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190065272270264095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-11014650296544948522015-08-23T10:58:06.469-07:002015-08-23T10:58:06.469-07:00Please don't talk about Evangelicals and Patri...Please don't talk about Evangelicals and Patriarchy in the same breath. While those in the Patriarchal movement may consider themselves Evangelical, there are many more Evangelicals who are absolutely appalled and sickened by what transpires behind those patriarchal closed doors. Grammie Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07468460531262173395noreply@blogger.com