tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post5355485779415137242..comments2024-03-25T09:01:20.997-07:00Comments on Diary of an Autodidact: Modesty Culture Part 4: The Concept of "Defrauding" and Rape CultureDiary of an Autodidacthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-38650332595734009002018-09-25T15:41:17.425-07:002018-09-25T15:41:17.425-07:00Revisiting because a friend posted an article abou...Revisiting because a friend posted an article about a pastor blaming rape on women and I posted a link to this article:<br /><br />As you know, Tim, I have experience with Neo-Paganism. I have gone to Pagan festivals where clothing is optional. (This is how one learns that many, many people are not sexier with their clothes off.) Is there occasional harassment? Yes, mostly from men who are not members of the Pagan community and come just because "Hey, nekkid women!" <br /><br />But overwhelmingly, women are treated with respect, clothes on or off. They can openly express interest in sex with one or more people without people assuming A) that she's a slut or B) that that means she's fair game for any man in the group. <br /><br />The men stand ready to evict any man who behaves badly with greater or lesser degrees of prejudice, up to driving him the 20 minutes out to the highway and leaving him there naked in the middle of the night.<br /><br />None of this is terribly surprising when you realize that these are people who worship a Goddess as well as a God.<br />Dana Carpenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14755223481359798197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-88506068260494210862016-02-21T08:04:19.477-08:002016-02-21T08:04:19.477-08:00The darned thing is, the Bible's words directl...The darned thing is, the Bible's words directly on modesty are exclusively about not wearing fancy stuff, jewelry, braided hair, what have you, as if it makes you "all that". It's more about not showing up the people who can't afford as much within a church fellowship. The New Testament doesn't say a word about how many inches of flesh one exposes. Not surprising people like Gothard and Phillips have to go back to the Old Testament to get their form of modesty, and even then they don't find it in a direct pronouncement, but out of some convoluted oddball interpretation of the Garden of Eden story. <br /><br />It's no surprise at all, that two men who are perhaps now the most infamous for allegedly being perverted and sexually abusive in all of U.S. evangelicalism would be the ones to shove such self-serving nonsense on Christendom. The modesty culture needs to find the real God, because they have a false one in their pharisaism. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02854284008269825261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-19874116459780649622015-06-24T11:38:24.725-07:002015-06-24T11:38:24.725-07:00I like how the author goes from "people shoul...I like how the author goes from "people should wear clothes" to "neck to ankles." <br /><br />Not surprising this is connected with Vision Forum. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-1907908962561718182015-06-24T04:39:51.466-07:002015-06-24T04:39:51.466-07:00Said person has been married 20 years and has many...Said person has been married 20 years and has many children.<br /><br />Said person's wife told me that yes, men are absolutely responsible for their own thoughts. However, women also bear some responsibility in their contribution in creating visual stimuli to men. She recommended that I read "Christian Modesty and the Public Undressing of America" by Jeff Pollard. The entire book is available online, I believe. <br /><br />The author of that book claims that we should wear clothes because (1) Adam and Eve (2) the OT priests (3) Jesus (4) the angels wear/wore clothes. The biblical standard is the clothes must cover everything from the neck down to below the knees.<br /><br />A little digging and I discovered that Vision Forum used to sell this book. So, you know, alarm bells and all that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-85671609802972427352015-06-22T12:58:04.737-07:002015-06-22T12:58:04.737-07:00Interesting. I haven't experienced much of tha...Interesting. I haven't experienced much of that, fortunately. <br /><br />I must say, if someone is *really* having trouble staying faithful because, well, young girls showing their legs, I suspect there are deeper problems in that marriage. <br /><br />Also, I would not be eager to have said person around my daughters, if he is sexualizing them like that. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-18858973518460822102015-06-22T05:19:22.828-07:002015-06-22T05:19:22.828-07:00"Likewise, you will never see someone admit t..."Likewise, you will never see someone admit to lusting after a girl who dresses in a way they don't approve."<br /><br />Maybe not 'lust' exactly, but someone I know posted the following as his Facebook status:<br /><br />Looks like short skirts are the fashion this season. Trying hard to be faithful to my wife.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-207956149551364742015-06-04T03:13:29.981-07:002015-06-04T03:13:29.981-07:00The jeans rape story in Italy is an hoax, propagat...The jeans rape story in Italy is an hoax, propagated by a politician who wanted publicity for herself. What actually happened was that a girl accused her driving instructor of "ripping off" her jeans and raping her, but her story doesn't hold because, among other facts, she was seen happily dining with the alleged rapist, about an hour after the alleged rape, with perfectly intact jeans. The judge just noted that it's difficult to remove jeans without submitting the wearer into cooperation (which is not what the victim said had happened). And there are a lot of other discepancies between the alleged victim's account and forensic evidence and witness reports (yep, she could have asked for help to several people). False rape claims are very rare, but this is one of them. They often happen in ultra conservative environments, where girls feel they have to deny they have consensual sex at any cost.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-2633332938496901012015-05-30T20:40:17.829-07:002015-05-30T20:40:17.829-07:00I'll admit to limited experience with neo-paga...I'll admit to limited experience with neo-pagans. If I am honest, it's probably due in part to my age. It caught on after my time, apparently :)<br /><br />But, yeah, I could definitely see that. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-90766296430127464542015-05-30T11:34:16.858-07:002015-05-30T11:34:16.858-07:00Heh. My experience with neo-pagans suggests that ...Heh. My experience with neo-pagans suggests that they're much <i>less</i> batshit insane about women's bodies (and physicality in general, really).ShifterCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15809259695603464596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-59678126542328935932014-06-01T23:09:59.052-07:002014-06-01T23:09:59.052-07:00Let me play devil's advocate on the other side...Let me play devil's advocate on the other side. (I stole this from a relative by marriage, btw.)<br /><br />Isn't telling girls what to do to avoid being raped basically saying, "Make sure it is the other girl that gets raped"?Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-38779137908439143462014-05-29T16:27:12.519-07:002014-05-29T16:27:12.519-07:00Thanks for a great comment.
I grew up in a rough...Thanks for a great comment. <br /><br />I grew up in a rougher area of Los Angeles, so I know exactly what Cory Booker was talking about. We had many great neighbors (and a few crazy ones - like anywhere), and I have fond memories of my time there. <br /><br />You are absolutely right that this philosophy sexualizes life for little kids, who, at age 4 would be running around naked in many cultures. <br /><br />I'm hoping to work it into a future installment, but I had an experience of my own last year where my kids got to play and swim with other kids whose parents were either non-religious or mainstream Christian - and feminist leaning. It was the first time I *ever* recall that my daughters could be around boys their age without anyone commenting on their swimsuits. (Either approvingly or disapprovingly.) Male/female friendships were not assumed to be romantic, but expected. As you put it, "look at each other, talk to each other, touch each other as people--human beings first and foremost, not sexualized men and women." Such a breath of fresh air. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-29472336518703644482014-05-29T16:14:00.903-07:002014-05-29T16:14:00.903-07:00I once heard Cory Booker tell a story on himself: ...I once heard Cory Booker tell a story on himself: he was asking a well-off person how she could stand to live in a "terrible neighborhood"; she replied, "What you see in this neighborhood says more about you than it does about the neighborhood." I can relate to that because I have lived in wonderful, most definitely middle-class neighborhoods, but more than once my friends who couldn't see past the color of people's skin thought those wonderful neighborhoods absolutely unsafe.<br /><br />Once, when my child was about four, he got covered in burdocks during a walk in the woods. Very sensibly, he stripped to his underwear before going into the house. The equally little children we were with, whose parents were seriously into Doug Wilson and Co. at the time, were scandalized: "Mama, Mama, R took his clothes off."<br /><br />I see an awful lot of obsession with sex at work as I work for a denomination with a large and vocal group of extreme modesty proponents. Though every single day I fight falling into their way of thinking about other people, it does warp my perceptions about what is normal. So I was amazed and enchanted, when I recently spent time with my now twenty-something child and his friends in a far-away city, at how small and balanced a part sexuality seems to play in their lives. They're all perfectly normal, secular or mainstream Christians, and they look at each other, talk to each other, touch each other as people--human beings first and foremost, not sexualized men and women.<br /><br />The profiling of women is the last acceptable profiling. Those who do it, though, seem unaware that in the end it also profiles men.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-44454626208366023382014-05-29T14:59:33.970-07:002014-05-29T14:59:33.970-07:00It didn't help Doug Phillips' victim eithe...It didn't help Doug Phillips' victim either, did it?Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-49792770929559203662014-05-29T14:18:34.332-07:002014-05-29T14:18:34.332-07:00The absurdity in Gothard's case is the girls w...The absurdity in Gothard's case is the girls were dressing in his own modesty standards. So they can't be the cause of his fall. Travis https://www.blogger.com/profile/15544719218180062798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-21377935451796405162014-05-29T10:57:11.848-07:002014-05-29T10:57:11.848-07:00Before I respond, let me just remind you to check ...Before I respond, let me just remind you to check out the comment policy. I know you intended no harm, and are being courteous, so I will let it slide. That said, I welcome discussion, but not just links. Feel free to e-mail me links if you like. (Just click on my name at the top of this response.) I would just prefer that the comments section be less like a running argument of links and more like a discussion. Thanks!<br /><br />That said, this incident does illustrate another point that I hope to make in a later post about the inconsistent application of standards.Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-78154816327816415832014-05-29T10:49:14.529-07:002014-05-29T10:49:14.529-07:00As a lawyer, I am second cousin to the devil's...As a lawyer, I am second cousin to the devil's advocate ;) So, I appreciate that.<br /><br />Here are some thoughts on the issue you raised:<br />1. UCLA mention's "tight" clothing in the sense of one that restricts movement and speed, thus making escape difficult. I think that may be a poor choice of words on their part. "Restrictive" might be better. After all, running briefs and a sports bra are plenty "tight," but world class runners are hardly slow. Likewise, I am informed that superhero costumes are both tight and fast...<br /><br />2. The issue of "safety" is completely different from that of "modesty." As I will be showing in the next installment, there was a study recently done in Egypt that showed that there was zero connection between what a woman was wearing and the likelihood she would be sexually assaulted. Hijab did not give any protection. There is no level of "modesty" that protects from sexual assault - or lust. <br /><br />If anything, there is a strong correlation between societies that impose dress codes and those that tolerate sexual assault and violence against women. (This will also go in the next installment.) <br /><br />That's a different issue from taking precautions against dangerous situations. Just as I avoid certain places and situations to avoid getting robbed, women - and men - should learn to stay safe and defend themselves. Most of UCLA's recommendations are good, common sense ideas. They also correlate with your analogy of theft. <br /><br />The better analogy for "modesty culture" would be to always keep your car in a cover, even when driving, so that no thief would want to steal it. <br /><br />3. On your final issue, I risk getting ahead of my own series. Let me just give a few concepts and leave the details for future posts: a. when "modesty culture" advocates use that line, they really mean "dressing in a way I disapprove sends the wrong 'message,'" as I pointed out. What they like = good clothes, what they don't = slutty clothes. For the most part, those defined as "slutty" are perfectly acceptable within the greater culture. Just not in a certain subculture. b. Is this quote *ever* used about men? There is a strong sexist and misogynistic undercurrent in the phrase. There is a feminist idea - that I find persuasive - that mens' bodies are just allowed to be human bodies, while women's bodies are burdened with a sexual message. A man's body is just his body (as long as he keeps his genitals covered), but a woman's body means sex. <br /><br />Rape culture. Po-TAY-to, Po-TAH-to.Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-42423166559159376702014-05-29T10:43:46.725-07:002014-05-29T10:43:46.725-07:00Rape Culture you say?
http://fox13now.com/2014/05/...Rape Culture you say?<br />http://fox13now.com/2014/05/28/students-at-utah-school-upset-to-discover-yearbook-photos-were-altered-before-publication/<br /><br />Modesty shaming?<br />http://fox13now.com/2014/05/29/photoshopped-yearbook-pics-for-modesty-about-control-rape-recovery-center-says/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-56022896521988982582014-05-29T09:59:22.373-07:002014-05-29T09:59:22.373-07:00OK, I loved this post, along with all the rest. I ...OK, I loved this post, along with all the rest. I wanted to raise a couple questions, just as Devil's advocate....<br /><br />I completely agree with your sentiment that no matter what a woman is wearing, she is not causing men to lust, but at what point (if any) does the issue of practicality come into play... a few examples to illustrate what I'm asking:<br /><br />- There are legitimately different types of clothing to wear that will help you escape an assailant, UCLA mentions "no tight clothing" http://www.counseling.ucla.edu/care_keepingsafe.html<br /><br />- An analogy - if someone breaks into my car and steals things, it is their fault, regardless of whether or not I locked the door. However, if I locked the door, it is to some degree more difficult for them to steal from me. - In your opinion, is there some level of "modesty" for women that would make it more difficult for men to assault her?<br /><br />- There is a general principle that's not related to Christianity, in general. To quote from the old movie Face-Off, "If you dress like Halloween, ghouls will try to get in your pants." (quote found here: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119094/quotes") Agree or disagree?<br /><br />Thanks!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13629104835057742596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-77221298516466344952014-05-29T07:37:33.927-07:002014-05-29T07:37:33.927-07:00Three points on Mohler:
1. After seeing the way ...Three points on Mohler: <br /><br />1. After seeing the way the Gospel Coalition has "handled" the sexual abuse cover up in C. J. Mahaney's church, I wouldn't say that his theological view of the body leans toward the protection of victims or an opposition to rape culture. <br />2. SBTS's positions on gender roles and its cozy relationship with people like John Piper (and others) who tell women to endure domestic violence make me highly skeptical that they take violence against women serious. They are part of the problem. <br />3. I cited the Boz Tchividjian article earlier in the series, and he points out that SBTS and the Gospel Coalition are pretty obsessed with homosexuality, but pretty much ignore the issue of sexual abuse and rape in their conferences on sexuality.<br /><br />On a related note, red flags go off for me whenever someone starts saying they are taking their views from scripture rather than culture - because usually that means using the most literal possible interpretation in a way that enforces the prejudices of the past (particularly patriarchy and rape culture). Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-89756762087309531412014-05-29T04:21:14.894-07:002014-05-29T04:21:14.894-07:00You may also find the following worthwhile:
http:/...You may also find the following worthwhile:<br />http://www.albertmohler.com/2014/03/13/an-evangelical-theology-of-the-body-biblical-theology-and-the-sexuality-crisis/<br /><br />In it Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, decries the way conservative Christians have dealt with the body and calls for a close examination of our attitude (or theology) toward it with an eye toward Scripture, not our own cultural prejudices. It's a bit long, but raises some good points.<br /><br />He focuses on the rise and normalization of homosexuality rather than rape culture. But both highlight mistreatments of the body.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-1367911659840871632014-05-28T21:43:35.175-07:002014-05-28T21:43:35.175-07:00Indeed. it has spread throughout Christian culture...Indeed. it has spread throughout Christian culture to the point where I would say it is an obsession. <br /><br />I'm trying to think of the last time I heard a significant discussion of classism (the real point of I Timothy 2:8-10 - I'll discuss this in a future post), but I have seen and heard literally thousands of ones on the need for young women to dress differently. (I use literally exactly how it is intended to be used.) Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-54205947297294561422014-05-28T17:10:42.389-07:002014-05-28T17:10:42.389-07:00Beth Moore falls into this trap as well with her &...Beth Moore falls into this trap as well with her "keep your breasts to yourself" rant.<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3kU0crua1EAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com