tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post1868725952477174654..comments2024-03-25T09:01:20.997-07:00Comments on Diary of an Autodidact: Modesty Culture Part 12: Amanda's StoryDiary of an Autodidacthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-73296400727546360542022-10-03T12:56:47.311-07:002022-10-03T12:56:47.311-07:00For those following along, the comment by Thre abo...For those following along, the comment by Thre above is a classic example of how not to respond to a victim of abuse. All the elements are there:<br />1. Gaslighting. "It wasn't as bad as you said it was." "I never saw the abuse." <br />2. Excusing the abusers. "They had good motives." "They just wanted the best for us." <br />3. Victim blaming. "You just have a victim spirit." <br />4. Minimizing the damage. "You turned out fine." "It all worked together for good." <br /><br />This is the classic behavior of those who wish to protect abusers from the consequences of their behavior. And, specifically in this case, to protect the reputation of those who either abused or allowed abuse to occur. <br /><br />So, let me make clear why I wrote this:<br />1. To warn others about the evil theology and practice that has harmed so many. This was not okay, and expecting any of us to pretend it was okay is wrong and harmful in itself. Others need to know that Christian Patriarchy and Modesty/Purity Culture have harmed a hell of a lot of people, destroyed family relationships, and served mostly to enrich the wallets of the false teachers who promote these teachings.<br />2. To bring accountability to the false teachers. They need to recognized as the ravenous wolves that they are, and understood to have torn their flocks to pieces. It is my wish that none of them ever be permitted to be in a position of spiritual authority again. <br />3. To let other victims of this spiritual abuse know that they are not alone, that there are many more of us who went through this, and - most importantly - that what was done to us was not in any way okay. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-33170097838753087232022-10-03T09:53:46.932-07:002022-10-03T09:53:46.932-07:00Experiences within groups vary by person. I presum...Experiences within groups vary by person. I presume that you were not targeted for disapproval, for example. And you may not have been involved during every part of my wife's experiences. I should also note that good intentions on the part of parents do not make up for harmful behavior. Spiritual abuse of children is never okay, no matter how good the motives. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-14802147332991342342022-09-24T15:47:59.087-07:002022-09-24T15:47:59.087-07:00I found this blog because I was what I thought a f...I found this blog because I was what I thought a friend of Amanda's. My family was part of the homeschool/church group you are referring too. Some twenty years after marrying and moving on, I have to disagree with many of the statements about our home church. Just as an example, I know in my family specifically, pants were not prohibited. we wore jeans for horseback riding and my dad totally encouraged it. We also skiied with the haut family at their cabin several times and never saw anyone wearing skirts over ski pants! Sorry to disagree but I feel like this group was painted in a very bad light, when the true heart of our parents was to raise us for Christ. Sure they messed up, but rather than harbor a victim spirit, I have chosen to learn from my experiences and change some things up as I have matured in Christ. <br />I also want to mention that my brother was interested in Amanda briefly and they were not allowed to talk one-on-one, which I agree was very weird, but have they been allowed to who knows if it would have culminated in marriage? In which case she would have missed out on marrying Tim! So all things work together for good!Threhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05605026623948411933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-90095458948054261912015-08-08T12:14:21.909-07:002015-08-08T12:14:21.909-07:00You have identified a "type" there - one...You have identified a "type" there - one that I would guess tends to be narcissistic. Men do this to men too, of course, in a way that suggests violence, rather than sex. I am a short man (5'7"), and plenty of tall bullying sorts still try this from time to time. <br /><br />It is an interesting question, though, of cultural differences on personal space. What is acceptable on public transportation wouldn't necessarily be so in another situation. So, certainly there is the intentional intimidation, but there may be some cases where space violations are innocent. Fun to ponder this stuff...Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-88528993205072197482015-08-07T19:06:14.623-07:002015-08-07T19:06:14.623-07:00I don't think it's strictly a Southern thi...I don't think it's strictly a Southern thing. I've been in Christendom all of my life and I've lived in the northern Mid-west, the Southwest, the South and now Texas. I've also visited New England and "the East".<br /> <br />From a woman's perspective I tend to feel that the people, especially men, who invaded my space (aggressively) generally were trying to dominate me in some way - their "attractiveness" (no comment), their intelligence, their superiority, etc. I'm not trying to be disagreeable, just passing on my own experiences.Mary E. Stephenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09206071568335923658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-63722049871634755432014-11-10T09:59:54.031-08:002014-11-10T09:59:54.031-08:00Interesting point. I think you are right that ther...Interesting point. I think you are right that there is the assumption that beauty correlates with a lack of goodness. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-73386642857223126492014-11-09T23:28:46.176-08:002014-11-09T23:28:46.176-08:00When I was a teenager, I attended a bible study gr...When I was a teenager, I attended a bible study group, which I really enjoyed, because the focus was not on memorizing and believing what the pastor told us, but on discussing and understanding what a certain chapter or verse meant to us. <br /><br />In this group there was a girl, who was very pretty and who had a womanly body from age 13. She did not do anything to show off, she wore the same baggy jeans and t-shirts everybody else wore at that time. After a while, our fellow students (and some parents, who should have known better) started shunning and slut-shaming her. Looking back, there is one thing that strikes me: when the not so pretty girls (like me, for example) were unhappy about their looks, they were told not to worry, because God sees a person's heart. This girl was never told that God saw her heart. She was judged only because of her outward appearance. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-50893695381319049432014-09-08T11:02:03.484-07:002014-09-08T11:02:03.484-07:00Yes it is. Yes it is. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-64550259912285324072014-08-28T03:29:29.254-07:002014-08-28T03:29:29.254-07:00My wife had an encounter with this culture the oth...My wife had an encounter with this culture the other week. We homeschool our daughter. Some of the mothers in the co-op we attend got together at the beach with their children. Several of the mothers didn't even bother to wear swimsuits - they wore long sleeved clothing. One of them wore one of those "modesty swimsuits" you wrote about in an earlier post. My wife wore the most revealing suit - a tankini style with a skirt, but with a deep-V neckline.<br /><br />My wife was a little taken aback that these women were so prudish. But it showed that the forces of body fear are alive and strong.Jasenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17612368694261383142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-3045727733736920522014-08-20T17:57:33.886-07:002014-08-20T17:57:33.886-07:00I'll admit, if it hadn't been for the time...I'll admit, if it hadn't been for the time spent in more "normal" Christianity before our Gothard years, I strongly suspect I would have had nothing to make me consider keeping my faith. Without that prior experience of a loving God and a loving church family, why would I have wanted to risk it again? As it is, it has been a tough journey. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-79621909337481356182014-08-20T16:35:18.422-07:002014-08-20T16:35:18.422-07:00I comment both you and Amanda for sharing your sto...I comment both you and Amanda for sharing your story. You're bravery to cultivate a relationship with a loving God and walk away from an oppressive one is a miracle. It is one of the hardest journeys in faith I've walked. froginparishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00595938392821045803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-29234373512886918432014-08-20T11:02:06.564-07:002014-08-20T11:02:06.564-07:00Unfortunately, it isn't isolated. Very few you...Unfortunately, it isn't isolated. Very few young women escaped damage from these teachings. Looking at the people I knew from my Gothard years, it is disheartening how many have left the faith, and how many more have struggled with sexuality, faith, and the pain they endured. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-38755616328518388712014-08-20T10:28:28.450-07:002014-08-20T10:28:28.450-07:00This is a really sad story, and it is certainly no...This is a really sad story, and it is certainly not an isolated one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-90641034801220565362014-08-20T10:12:46.656-07:002014-08-20T10:12:46.656-07:00"A Southern thing"? Well, the South is ..."A Southern thing"? Well, the South is the Bible Belt, and attitudes there seem to have seeped throughout "conservative Christianity." My bachelor's is from Mid-America Nazarene College (now University) near Kansas City, and the culture there was distinctly "southern" in many ways; I heard a lot of drawls. -- Intererstingly, the "liberal" denominations such as Congregational UCC, Episcopal, Methodist and especially Unitarian Universalist are mostly headquartered in New England or other "northern" areas. We may be on to something...jochanaanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14143066702059757955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-8114991624915709422014-08-20T10:03:20.626-07:002014-08-20T10:03:20.626-07:00Interesting thoughts. I'm more of a city boy t...Interesting thoughts. I'm more of a city boy than a country boy (I grew up in Los Angeles), but I have plenty of country relatives. (Eastern Montana, mostly.) I don't remember having a problem with violation of personal space, and I am an introvert who likes his space. Maybe it's a Southern thing?<br /><br />Your mention of the military is interesting. My thought is that the drill sergeant in the recruit's face is a display and exercise of power. Of dominance. It also functions like the rest of the training to teach absolute obedience under great stress. That's necessary in a war, obviously, but not so much in everyday relationships.<br /><br />In this particular case, there is no doubt in either my or my wife's mind that this man knew damn well that he was making her profoundly uncomfortable, and that he did it intentionally. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-57503362931627305492014-08-20T09:13:46.404-07:002014-08-20T09:13:46.404-07:00A truly cautionary tale.
In the 1970s when I was ...A truly cautionary tale.<br /><br />In the 1970s when I was a teenager involved in a Church of the Nazarene in rural Nebraska, I met a few seminary students. I noticed they had a tendency to stand close to me while simply talking to me, closer than I liked. (Country folk tend to have a strong sense of personal boundaries.) At that time I thought it might result from something like the military services do to recruits, drill sergeants getting "up in their faces" and invading personal space to make "good soldiers" out of them; but now I wonder if there was more going on in those conservative seminaries than there seemed. Perhaps "invading personal space" is something that's taught by example there, although by no means labeled as such--and some of those professors might be secretly frustrated in personal relationships while denying "in the name of Jesus" any possibility of such frustration or even the need for personal relationships...jochanaanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14143066702059757955noreply@blogger.com