tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post1683098860676523318..comments2024-03-25T09:01:20.997-07:00Comments on Diary of an Autodidact: Dominionism and Evangelicalism PART 3: Presuppositionalism Has Poisoned EverythingDiary of an Autodidacthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-25997411525169847352017-06-26T20:48:51.773-07:002017-06-26T20:48:51.773-07:00"It would be nice, instead, to see a little h..."It would be nice, instead, to see a little humility. We have been theologically wrong before. Our understanding of the world has changed dramatically over recorded history. We have in the past allowed new discoveries and paradigms to alter our beliefs."<br /><br />What I find worse than this refusal to entertain the idea that they could be wrong, is the sudden push by crazy Fundamentalists that the fact that science is updated and corrected and sometimes abandoned as new evidence appears, somehow proves that it is inferior to a literal reading of the Bible. This insanity is messed up in more ways than I can describe, but you definitely mentioned a few here...Dark Phoenix (Nixa)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11557085553371905683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-34668540839647973682017-06-26T20:46:24.323-07:002017-06-26T20:46:24.323-07:00We still have very little understanding of the act...We still have very little understanding of the actual workings of the human brain. It wasn't exactly helped that up until the 20th century it was considered "unethical" to even consider monkeying around with it...Dark Phoenix (Nixa)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11557085553371905683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-85874479247276422542016-06-09T10:38:43.806-07:002016-06-09T10:38:43.806-07:00Preach it. Preach it. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-6090692090491827592016-06-09T10:15:42.399-07:002016-06-09T10:15:42.399-07:00The trouble with many house churches, in my experi...The trouble with many house churches, in my experience, is that many of their members still carry in their hearts the ideals of order, lay/clergy separation, and imposed doctrine from organized denominations. True equality and free exchange of truths will not come until those ideals are discarded and we truly acknowledge the Divine Grace God has given each one of us.jochanaanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14143066702059757955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-75183701077672091132016-06-08T17:46:20.265-07:002016-06-08T17:46:20.265-07:00I agree that new wineskins are needed. My personal...I agree that new wineskins are needed. My personal feeling (and I'm certainly no prophet) is that before there can be something new, the old needs to lose power. I expect that there will be a mass exodus from organized Christianity in America in the next generation, followed by a financial collapse of the church-industrial complex. Those left in Evangelicalism will become less and less distinguishable from White Supremacists, and will be consumed with hate for those outside the group. At that point, I think the greater number of "dones" will have to figure something out. What that will be, I don't know. If history has shown anything, it is that it is really hard to anticipate the next new thing. I would be more hopeful about the home church thing if I hadn't already experienced it. It sure seems that most of the ones I have been in were organized around an idea of "returning to the NT church," which meant in practice a return to Roman cultural norms as the goal - and silence for women. And for that matter, all the home church format seemed to do was to allow less competent leaders to dominate a smaller pond. <br /><br />But I do agree with you that there will be something. Those who seek to follow Christ will always have a way somewhere, somehow.Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-46907521540585332462016-06-08T17:40:01.910-07:002016-06-08T17:40:01.910-07:00It is kind of intriguing that both Dispensationali...It is kind of intriguing that both Dispensationalists and Postmillenialists have ended up sounding *mostly* the same about everything else. One reason I believe that Evangelical culture isn't really organized around ideas, but around tribalism and an "us versus them" rallying cry. <br /><br />Great point, though, about cultural bias. I think it would be a great improvement if we acknowledged that. It might lead to a bit more humility about our conclusions. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-41897338757010415232016-06-08T17:37:39.401-07:002016-06-08T17:37:39.401-07:00Thanks for stopping by! I too have had to do a lot...Thanks for stopping by! I too have had to do a lot of thinking about "fragility." In some ways, whenever you start reading and thinking outside of a particular paradigm, there is the genuine risk that you might change, and change is not my favorite thing. <br /><br />Just an example of this fear in action occurred today when a friend (who is on an unfortunate apologetics kick at the moment) declined to read a book I suggested because it was "empty philosophy" and he had already made up his mind. Best not to disturb a sleeping dogma...Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-939398653953746812016-06-08T17:32:24.263-07:002016-06-08T17:32:24.263-07:00I wish I could answer that question for myself rig...I wish I could answer that question for myself right now. I worry that at some point my refusal to just drink the koolaid will result in my having to start all over without the connections I have made in 40 years of life. Some will persist, obviously, but it gets harder to maintain many other relationships now that I am an "apostate." Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-18430454016659002972016-06-08T17:29:37.704-07:002016-06-08T17:29:37.704-07:00You nailed it.
Ironically, I was raised on A Bek...You nailed it. <br /><br />Ironically, I was raised on A Beka science, but my dad was as far back as I can remember and old earther. (Probably because he grew up in an era when Dinosaur Denialism was the flavor du jour - except he had seen the bones in their original sites. <br /><br />I too have been appalled to see the embrace of quackery (aka alternative medicine) despite ludicrous and obviously wrong claims. <br /><br />I'm convinced that the reason that my faith survived my rejection of YEC and embrace of modern science is that I never *really* in my heart of hearts could believe that doctrine trumped science. I've taken some hits from friends and family over my "coming out" as an evolutionist, though, I must say. <br /><br />Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-31699504832408694782016-06-08T17:00:35.336-07:002016-06-08T17:00:35.336-07:00Yes. My husband and I are waiting for the next win...Yes. My husband and I are waiting for the next wineskin God has for his Church. Our last pastor told us "You not only disagree with me, you disagree with the whole of the Evangelical church" -- shocking me very much -- when we tried to express our concerns. After considering this for a moment, my mild-mannered, diplomatic, Bible-believing, conservative husband responded, "You know, I think you're right." I thought "NOOOOOoooooo!!!!" But ... yeah. I'm afraid it's becoming more and more true.<br /><br />I don't see the new wineskin yet. Small groups, like, house churches? That's where we are now, waiting.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08594257332469774297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-34417486730904036972016-06-08T13:34:51.516-07:002016-06-08T13:34:51.516-07:00I got sidetracked with "rogue endocrinology&q...I got sidetracked with "rogue endocrinology" - casting my doctor as some sort of "thyroid physician by day/ritualistic pagan by night" Which begs the questions: exactly what is he doing with all those thyroids he has removed? ;-)<br />But I love your comments Breanna. As well as the dialogue of this site. <br /><br />I've always been fascinated that the nation of Israel was so named as to be the people who are known to wrestle with God. My own personal sense of alienation evanglicalism is because I want to intellectually wrestle and consider it the only way to deepen my faith, and feel unwelcome to do so.<br /><br />So my question right now: where do I/we go from here?Kayleahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03121132215069674160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-79173437205499146162016-06-08T13:20:34.294-07:002016-06-08T13:20:34.294-07:00In the evangelical seminary I attended, I was taug...In the evangelical seminary I attended, I was taught to question the world view in which I approached Scripture, and to understand that culture bias exists for everyone, which is why we need a community and paradigm of Bible interpretation which includes many cultures and all history. My basic conclusion from this is that I necessarily have some interpretation wrong.<br /><br />Many of my professors articulated a view of appreciating truth more in line with J. Budziszewski's ideas on natural law than devoted to Van Til and certainly not Rushdoony. And while the circles I have been in are just as lacking in discernment and prone to the errant embracing modesty culture and cult-like following as ATI/VisionForum, et al, I tend to think it is a lack of discernment rather than true Dominionism. Certainly Dispensational thought differs from Dominionist thought greatly in philosophy and doctrine, if not in practice in our current political climate.Kayleahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03121132215069674160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-7890626660337786832016-06-08T07:26:29.975-07:002016-06-08T07:26:29.975-07:00YES. This is exactly what made me start wrestling ...YES. This is exactly what made me start wrestling with faith presuppositions - ironically, because my catholic and mainline evangelical upbringing held things in a pretty comfortable balance, and it wasn't until I was in college that I fell into more conservative sects that embraced things like young-earth creationism. It was attractive for a while - as anything that purports to have all the easy answers is attractive - but eventually my inner science geek rebelled. <br /><br />I can't tell you how many deba---uh, conversations I've had wherein "liberal" college professors or "atheist agendas" were blamed for somebody's kid walking away from their faith (though possibly that is happening less and less, as it appears to me that most people who are that invested in their literal interpretation of scripture tend to NOT send their kids to secular colleges, nor, unsurprisingly, do they tend to begat scientists). An intelligent young person, when presented with scientific fact in the form of actual geology, paleontology, astrophysics, evolutionary biology, etc, is going to have a faith crisis if s/he has been raised on A Beka textbooks. Whether s/he survives that crisis with faith still intact has everything to do with whether s/he feels free to question the doctrines in light of the facts. But questioning the doctrines is Not Allowed in these circles - and thus it is their insistence on their own presuppositions that drives the child away. Not the evil liberal education, which is only the means by which the door is opened to the questions. <br /><br />I had to give up arguing about it, though. It was the proverbial head-->stone wall. <br /><br />It's very frustrating to see the anti-science bias spreading into arenas beyond origin theory, though. There was a time when, for example, the bias against modern medicine was the domain of liberal granola types and a few obscure cults. Now it's rampant within conservative churches - at least, from my observations.Sunrisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11414752378032566870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-33297672300876761772016-06-08T00:13:07.760-07:002016-06-08T00:13:07.760-07:00Great post! I'm enjoying your series very much...Great post! I'm enjoying your series very muchtamtamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06957307399056934791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-39351154387300557812016-06-07T16:24:55.937-07:002016-06-07T16:24:55.937-07:00I appreciate this post very much! I need to think ...I appreciate this post very much! I need to think through my presuppositions a bit more.<br />Have to think more about the idea of Christianity being "fragile"...<br />Thanks again!Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12833896018077722056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-62170337970267910402016-06-07T13:21:34.055-07:002016-06-07T13:21:34.055-07:00On a different note, I rather suspect you and I ar...On a different note, I rather suspect you and I are on the "same side" on a lot of issues, although perhaps not the Calvinist/Arminian one. Thanks for stopping by to comment. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-32732326837617465162016-06-07T13:19:13.498-07:002016-06-07T13:19:13.498-07:00I'll confess I have not read Common Grace and ...I'll confess I have not read Common Grace and the Gospel. However, my understanding from my research, the book deals with a specific theological question: how to reconcile passages in the bible which appear to assume free will – and common grace – with the Calvinist doctrine of election. Specifically “double election,” the inescapable conclusion that God has elected some people for damnation with zero choice on their part. The “common grace” in this argument is in contrast to “saving grace.” I can’t find any indication that Van Til is using the more expansive definition of “common grace” I use, which encompasses the ability of non-Christians (and non-Calvinists) to understand and discover truth, even without the presuppositions; and the idea that all of us contain good and are capable of good. (This contrasts with the Calvinist doctrine of “total depravity,” of course.) <br /><br />The greater body of Van Til’s works create the full picture of his teaching, which is that all systems of knowledge in all fields: philosophy, logic, reason, science, history and the rest included, will end in nonsense unless the presuppositions are believed. Once Van Til tore down the possibility of knowledge and truth from outside the presuppositions, it was inevitable that someone would step in to answer the question of how one determines truth. I have no idea whether Van Til would have been pleased with Rushdoony’s “solution,” but I believe it was the logical and inevitable result of Van Til’s presuppositionalism. <br /><br />I will agree with you that just because something has been abused isn’t a reason to reject it. Fair enough. But I will counter thus:<br /><br />Fruit matters. If you find that an idea is constantly, continuously abused; if it leads to teachings that cause harm (I mentioned just a few); if it leads to a disconnect from reality; maybe it isn’t just a coincidence. Maybe the whole tree is rotten. <br /><br />I also want to point out that presuppositionalism is a really poor foundation for a philosophical argument. Among other faults, it assumes a lot of things (you’re probably familiar with Basic Beliefs) to be true first, then tries (in a circular way) to slide a belief in a deity under that foundation. And then, before you know it, you have to assume a couple of other things to be Basic Beliefs, namely that the deity in question is the Christian God (or, more specifically, the Calvinist God), and that scripture is the one true message from that god. It’s problematic on that basis alone to many of us. <br /><br />I don’t really want to make this into an endless philosophy discussion, but I used to be in the presuppositionalist camp, and I can no longer hold to that argument. <br />Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-62235847702595237322016-06-07T12:35:01.869-07:002016-06-07T12:35:01.869-07:00Just out of curiosity, you do know Van Til's s...Just out of curiosity, you do know Van Til's seminal work is titled "Common Grace and the Gospel", and that his assertion is that it is precisely that doctrine which gives antithetical worldviews a point of contact, throughout his work? I share your distaste for Rushdoony, but a large part of my work over the last 8 years has been outlining how a humble, confessionally and systematically aware Christian is the only sort that should be using presuppositional apologetics. It is easily abused, and its popularizers have, in many cases, poorly understood it. Anything can be abused. That it has been abused is not reason enough to reject it. It is, in contrast, the reason to show how not to abuse it, and how it should be used. Fair enough?RazorsKisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04196172455018273851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-14483448385569604582016-06-07T11:06:35.724-07:002016-06-07T11:06:35.724-07:00Thank you, Tims. ;) I haven't quite left Evan...Thank you, Tims. ;) I haven't quite left Evangelical churches yet--we have so far been able to find good ones. I may be a subversive force wherever I go, however.Breanna Teintzehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06857684157682898312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-55435277532886703792016-06-07T10:38:44.274-07:002016-06-07T10:38:44.274-07:00Thanks! I am likewise enjoying and learning from y...Thanks! I am likewise enjoying and learning from your posts. Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-81771790969254932422016-06-07T10:38:16.908-07:002016-06-07T10:38:16.908-07:00As always, Breanna's comments are outstanding....As always, Breanna's comments are outstanding. A agree on the "gotcha" texts. That's one reason why I have a comment policy that states I will delete talking points comments. Been there, heard that, it doesn't work for me anymore. <br /><br />I love your bit about the fragility of a "christianity" that can't take any sort of questioning. It is absolutely fear based, and I have to feel that the people who are most abrasive about apologetics are at a subconscious level whistling past the graveyard. <br /><br />Diary of an Autodidacthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849157548643091986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-38010681605004088702016-06-07T10:34:33.535-07:002016-06-07T10:34:33.535-07:00Fiddlrts, I feel better educated after this post. ...Fiddlrts, I feel better educated after this post. <br /><br />For example, I had problems with Van Til from the moment I first read him, but I did not realize his foundational impact on Christian Reconstruction. There are many other examples in which I feel better informed.<br /><br />Thanks for this series; I look forward to your further posts.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04262026016908169872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-12966031078220678902016-06-07T10:30:09.633-07:002016-06-07T10:30:09.633-07:00Good comments, Breanna. In discussion with most ev...Good comments, Breanna. In discussion with most evangelicals, I watch in amazement as they throw old, prepackaged objections that I have heard so many times before.<br /><br />As a former passionate evangelical, I used many of those proofs and objections myself--and felt that they were the final word; I won!<br /><br />Trouble is, I am also a thinker and eventually saw through those 'proofs'.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04262026016908169872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-73737610351623419722016-06-07T08:15:04.461-07:002016-06-07T08:15:04.461-07:00There are two issues with Presuppositionalism (hea...There are two issues with Presuppositionalism (heavens, the spelling is going to give me tremors... "presup" from here out?) for me.<br /><br />The first is, of course, that it makes no sense--there are non-Christians who discover, promote, and articulate truth all the time. Demonstrably. I have seen them do it. This is not up for debate, it is a fact, like the existence of Iceland. Not just in philosophy, but in fiction, math, music, film, science, medicine, plumbing--a thousand places. I think some folks have to deny this, ironically, because they're not convinced down in their bones that Christianity is true. They're afraid someone will disprove it with rogue endocrinology. (Which makes one curious what their definition of Christianity IS, that it is so fragile?) Yet God is truth--all truth is His truth--so nothing anyone discovers should dismay us. We can learn more about what the Bible means and about the character of God through ALL of His revealing. The conflict between Revealed Truth and Observable Evidence just doesn't exist. They supplement and inform each other. It's like having two eyes.<br /><br />The second issue, to me, is that many people whose thought is very much shaped by presup don't realize that it is and can't articulate it. (This is not everyone, by any means, but most people just don't have time or the inclination to read.) There are plenty of people who manage to imbibe the *attitudes* of presup ("I'm right, you're dumb, my job is to batter you into agreeing with me") without understanding the *basis* for those attitudes. This is where you get, I believe, the maddening repetition of trademarked Gotcha Answers, which are treated as closing the discussion. <br /><br />(I refuse to discuss anything with someone who throws Gotcha Answers at my head. I'm fourth-generation Evangelical. I cut my teeth on Gotcha Answers and proof texts. *They have already occurred to me.* If I'm discussing a thing, its because I find the Gotcha Answer inadequate.)<br /><br />This isn't weird for humanity--almost all cultures, for example, call themselves something like "the people" and outsiders something like "the barbarians". But there's a reason why the New Testament keeps insisting that social distinctions are irrelevant in the kingdom of God. And there's a reason that the Bible takes a dim view of those who are impressed with their own knowledge.<br /><br />Hilariously, presup folks LOVE to quote verses about pride to *other people*. One of the hugely dangerous things about presup is that it enables one to turn all the Biblical warnings about pride, idolatry, cruelty, dominance, oppression, etc., outward. It's a fine armor against actual sanctification. God save us from it.Breanna Teintzehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06857684157682898312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4051826042602269061.post-17020067071797951682016-06-07T07:42:18.964-07:002016-06-07T07:42:18.964-07:00Augustine, for all his flaws, is great for explodi...Augustine, for all his flaws, is great for exploding the myth that a bunch of issues are new, weird, or localized to 'Merica. I'd like to smack him for leaving the woman he had a 16-year-old with just because he figured he should be a monk to make up for shagging everything that moved for half his life, but I confess I'd also really like to sit and listen to him talk for a while.Breanna Teintzehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06857684157682898312noreply@blogger.com